Church bells and trash.

I am an atheist and I am out. I don't hide it, and everyone knows my dislike of religion, and that at times I am a militant atheist. I have respect for people, but not for ideas or actions. If someone does something I find to be right, whether they are fundies or atheists or whatever, I will applaud them. If someone does something I find to be wrong, whether they are fundies or atheists, I will berate them.

This is a post about something despicable that a greek atheist woman did. Something that shows an uncivilized person, someone who has a lack of education and culture, someone who is literally a dirty person. Church bells in Greece (and in most countries) are sometimes a nuisance and create sound pollution. This girl is vacationing near a church that rings the bells every hour. As is natural, she was not happy with it. But what she did is what I find totally wrong. She went and emptied trash in front of the church door, and left a note.

I understand the note part. You can write a note and be polite, tell them about noise pollution and try in a civilized manner to make them stop ringing them every hour. I have some church bells that are being rang at inappropriate times like 6 and 7 o'clock in a Sunday morning, when I want to sleep a bit longer. But I would never empty trash in front of the church door, or anyone's door for that matter. I agree with leaving a note.

I disagree with the trash part. That shows a lack of respect for other people. She did not think of the cleaning lady that will have more work only because of pettiness. She did not think of the people that go in and out of the church and see that spectacle, of the children that may touch the trash or fall into it, and maybe put their hands in their mouth. The act of emptying trash in front of a church door, shows lack of respect for other people.

The extended environment we live in, has to be protected and kept clean. Whether we live in a forest or in a big city, we have an obligation to try and keep it clean and pretty. Throwing trash in the street or wherever for any reason is a sign of people with a lack of culture and education, of people without respect for themselves and others. I don't think I need to show pictures of the dirty sidewalks in Athens...

Online classes

At work today, just an ordinary day. Every day we get about 5 to 15 calls per day, from companies and people promoting their products and services. And of course, today was not different in number of calls. However, there is one call which stood out.

I answer the phone, and there is a woman's voice on the other end of the line, saying "Hello". So, I say Hello as well. The woman continues in atrocious English, or rather in a language that tried to sound and resemble English. Anyway, she said that she was calling from Spain or Pakistan... (yes, her language skills were that atrocious.) And what does she sell?

Online Qu'ran classes!

I am not joking. Anyway, I answered her thus: "No, thank you. I do not believe in god, allah or any of that other shit. Good bye." The woman managed to say "bye" before I hang up the phone.

And seriously, I do not know whether to laugh or cry at the above...

Thoughts on christian non-answers...

In a greek forum I have many times argued with a fundamentalist greek orthodox. Whatever I ask, he avoids to answer, and he always brings forth the following arguments, to which I am presenting my own thoughts:

• You do not know anything about the orthodox christian faith:  I have been born and raised in Greece, and I was baptized in the orthodox christian faith as a baby. My grandmother and my godmother were very faithful and used to force me and took me to church with them. They tried to make me believe in orthodox christianity, I even was sent to Sunday school, to catechism. It did not work. There was too much irrationality. From the story of Adam and Eve to the stories about the lives of the various saints, a lot of things do not make sense, and I could not make sense of those, could not see their logic. Because there is no logic in faith. As Carl Sagan put it: Faith is belief without evidence. As I grew up, I started to understand more and more, that really Sagan is right, that there is no logic in belief, in faith. One has to blindly believe, never question your faith and your beliefs, never question the reality of all these... Because the day you start asking questions, is the day that you start seeing faith for what it really is: a big fat lie. 
• You do not understand the christian orthodox faith: On the contrary, I understand it very well. I have seen blind faith and what it can do. Unfortunately, blind faith only brings out evil. Because when you do not ask questions,  but you blindly follow what you are given, then you just become a pawn to an idea, an organization. And, in this case, you become a slave to that idea, a pawn, a foot-soldier lying for Jesus. This faith makes people feel guilty for simple human things, from swearing and cursing to having sex, and many other things. This faith keeps people ignorant and illiterate, fills their heads with misogyny and racism, I unfortunately understand it very well, and have witnessed many of its forms and expressions. 
• Find a confessor/spiritual father from the church: this is a total non-answer! I do not want to go to a priest, confessor whatever from the church. I do not trust them. They know nothing about psychology, I do not think that they can help anyone. The only thing that those "spiritual fathers" will do is try to fill me with guilt for everything I do, make me feel inferior, try to imprison my spirit, and make me another foot-soldier for Jesus. I have explained many times that I do not trust confessors. With a 6 month seminary they go through, they cannot know and understand psychology. How can they diagnose a serious psychological illness such as monopolar/bipolar syndroms, schizophrenia, and more?
• Read a book about the orthodox christian faith: This another evasive tactic. I do not want to read another book about the orthodox christian faith, What more can this book tell me from the Bible or from what the various priests and bishops say? And what is my stimulus to get one of these books and read it? Is there anyone giving me a good reason to do so? None at all. However, I have taken a look at various such books in bookstores. I have opened them and tried to read a few paragraphs, to see if they had something interesting to say, if there was something that would make me buy and read that book. So far, I have not found anything positive in those books. All they say is just the same old stuff that the christian faith says: repent sinners, you will burn in hell, do not do this, do not do that... In short, they are forbidding people from living their lives...

And of course, the last non-argument, and the one that is never going to convince me to become a believer:

• You have to believe first in order to find god: if I have nothing to believe in, if I don't have evidence for what I believe in, how can I even start believing? How many faithful have really found god? There are a lot of faithful who have never found this entity. And there are a lot of atheists who were faithful, and never found god. When those people looked for god, looked for answers, they saw that there is nothing there. No god. There is absolutely no evidence at this moment for god, for the existence of such an entity. And I am not only talking about the christian orthodox faith, but about all religions. I have met a lot of people online, a lot of people who once were fundamentalists, creationists and the like. Some of them were even priests, or were trying to be, and have studied the scriptures, have studied apologetics, they had gone the whole way. But when they looked deeper, and tried to find god, they did not find what they were looking for. To their credit, these people did not close their eyes and go back to their blankets of faith. They went deeper, they followed their logic, their critical thinking, the evidence. A lot of faithful would say that those people did not believe enough, that their faith was lacking and other similar arguments. But those people did believe, they felt that faith, those beliefs with all their hearts, with all their being.

The above do not constitute answers, nor arguments for god and for a religion. They are evasions, apologetics, a tactic for those who do not want to have a rational and intelligent discussion, who do not want to engage in dialogue or debate. I am ready and willing to have such a discussion, but when I ask questions, and the answers are always the above, then how do these people expect me to start believing? How can they expect me to throw my logic, my critical thought, my freedom out of the window? Where are the arguments for the existence of god? Where is the evidence? And what evidence is there that the orthodox faith is the one true faith, and not another, like islam or catholicism, or even one of the cargo cults?

Of quotes and the Bible

In another post for this blog, namely the one on Small Gods, a member of blogger and probably fundamentalist Christian, has quoted a verse from scripture as a comment. You can quote all the scripture you want at me. I am not going to change my mind because of a book of myths!

Believers, and most notably fundamentalists, use circular logic in using the Bible as evidence. They argue that the Bible is the inerrant word of god. But when asked how they know, they answer, that it is written in the Bible! Where is the external confirmation that the Bible is the word of god? Where is the evidence that the Bible is the word of god?

If I am going to change my mind about the existence of any god(s) then it should be because of evidence. And not just any kind of evidence. Scientific evidence. The evidence on which computers and nanotechnology are built upon.

Saying that you have personal experiences of god(s), does not impress me. There are a lot of people out there who have varying degrees of personal experiences of the paranormal sort. Some see ghosts, some hear voices in their heads, etc. etc. And everyone who happens to have the personal experiences with god(s) usually communes with the kind of god s/he believes in. Never a Muslim has had a personal experience of Jesus or a Christian a personal experience of Buddha or anything similar. Christians commune with Jesus, the Virgin Mary or the Holy Spirit or some saint or other, but always of the same religion. And the same is true for every religion there is. So, no, personal experiences are not even remotely convincing evidence.

Another argument is with miracles. What miracles? I have not seen any miracle today. Some lightshows, where people see mysterious lights around a church or a holy place, and pareidolia, where people see the face of Jesus or the Virgin Mary with baby Jesus all over from Kit-Kats to toasts... No, that is not evidence either. Lightshows are usually explained by science. As for pareidolia, I am certain that I can see the face of David Bowie and Darth Vader too... Just our brains wired to see patterns. Our brains are wired to recognize patterns, and many times we see patterns even where they do not exist, or recognize some familiar things all over. Like in the clouds. how many times have we seen cloud formations that are similar to a familiar shape? That is also pareidolia, but we do not worship the clouds. So, no neither the lightshows or pareidolia cut it for me.

There are miracles of the medical kind. Sick people getting healthy and similar. And most of the times, because the doctors and nurses did everything they could for those people. Some ailments were due to psychological factors, and people believed they were cured when they in fact were not ill. Just their brains playing tricks on them. Some other "miracles" are not documented; people just say that this person or that got well because of the prayers, blah blah. But when asked for the evidence, mainly the medical records of these patients, they are non-existent or most of it is missing. And let's not forget that the human body is not as fragile as some people want us to think. We have an immune system and that system can be activated to fight off a number of diseases, even cancer. Yes, Virginia, there are people whose immune system fought cancer successfully. So, no miracles do not exist. There is no evidence of such.

Some use the fine-tuning argument. Really? The universe is fine-tuned for life? Oh, well then, we should be able to find conditions suitable for life everywhere! But wait, we know of exactly one planet with life: Earth. And then there are millions of things that are trying to kill us! From bacteria, wild animals to radiation from outer space, and more. So, where is the fine-tuning again?

Some others will use the morality canard. That we cannot be moral without a god of sorts. Oh please! Do you really need the fear of punishment and eternal torment to be human? To follow the humanistic principles? Do you need an oppressor and sky daddy, a tyrant, to tell you that you should not kill? Can't you think for yourself? And as for other moral issues, a lot of religions make me sick. Their stance on abortion, on homosexuality, on womens' issues is totally inhuman, racist and hateful on their part.

I am pro-abortion. The decision, the final decision, lies with the woman. What would a woman do with a baby she does neither want nor can take care of? There are many issues to consider, and I am certain that most women do not take this decision as lightly as some people may think. As a woman myself, I am glad that in my country, I have the option of doing an abortion. Of doing it with a proper doctor and not some quack out for a quick buck. That I can do it in a hospital where any complication can be treated properly. After all, it is my body and my choice in the end.

As for homosexuality: I do not care what anyone does in their private lives, as long as it is between consenting adults. Homosexual couples have, in my opinion, the same rights and obligations as heterosexual couples. They should get the same benefits, they should be able to adopt, they should be able to live their lives free from any prejudice. And most prejudice and racism against homosexuals comes from religion.

I will not go into the misogyny of most religions. Just read the Bible and the Koran, and there is not much else one can say or do. It is as if the people that wrote these books hated women.

So, no, I do not need a god to be moral. I do not need to be afraid of hell and punishment, to be moral. I do not need to be saved from sin. I don't believe in sin. Sex is not a sin. Neither eating meat on Friday is a sin. And the whole sin edifice collapses when we see that the original sin is nothing but a myth.

I adhere to the humanistic principles. Why? Because I am human, I grew around humans, and was educated by good people. I am not a sinner; I do not believe in sin. I am human. I made and still make mistakes; but I try to learn from them. And that is part of being human; that is part of life. I am not afraid of making mistakes; but I am afraid of not living my life, of being oppressed to worship some non-existent mythological being. I am afraid of not being able to express myself because of insane religious laws and practices.

I will not go into the whole creationism vs. science debate here, because, if I start on that there will be no end in sight for this post. Another time, I'll probably write about the creationist canards, especially when it comes to astronomy and physics which are more my passion. But let's just say, that creationism is full of holes, and the more someone tries to fill the holes, the more laughter ensues, with the stupidity and idiocy of creationists.

I am proud to be an atheist. I am proud of being able to think for myself, of not being afraid of a big tyrant in the sky. I am proud of using my brain constructively, of being able to really think critically.

Death of a forum: An ex-admin blogs about the defunct RD.net forum

Peter Harrison was for a very long time a moderator and admin of the forum. He put on a lot of his personal time and work to make the forum the incredible place it was. Peter was also the moderator that tutored every newbie moderator about the moderator control panels, what to do and what not to do, and many other things. He was the first person to congratulate me and tell me how happy he was that I would be moderating the Debunking Creationism subforum. I have a lot of respect for Peter, and last night he wrote a wonderful piece about the forum and how Josh Timonen and Andrew Chalkers killed the forum and the community.

The article can be found here: Death of the Dawkins forum - The world's busiest atheist forum closes

He has told the story much better than I could. The previous articles I wrote were more of a rant and an obituary. A rant because of the way both members and staff were treated by Josh Timonen and Andrew Chalkers; an obituary because those two site techs killed the forum totally with their actions.

I would like to say a big thank you to the moderating staff of the Richard Dawkins forum, all of them, from the ones that left before I joined, to the ones that were "sacked" on Monday. Thank you to all of you for making the forum what it was, and I am proud to have been given the chance to contribute as a moderator and member.

I would like to say a big thank you to all the members of the forum. You, people, were the heart of the forum, and what made it what it was. It was the busiest atheist forum on the net, maybe even one of the busiest and most active forums on the net.

Goodbye Richard Dawkins forum.

Death of a forum: death of the RD.net forum II

The Rd.net forum user hackenslash put this video up on youtube:

Death of a forum: death of the RD.net forum

Good morning everyone,

A lot of people may already know that until yesterday I was a global moderator on RDF and went by the same name as I write here: Darkchilde.

The RDF staff had no idea what was going to happen; we only knew that there was going to be a new site, and nothing much else. We made a couple of threads in the moderator's subforum, trying to pitch on ideas about the new forum, what we would like to see and other similar things. We also tried telling Josh and Andrew what the forum community is. But they did not listen, I think they were even worse than creotards in that respect.

Anyway, I  don't know if a lot people know what has happened; Josh and Andrew have deleted the New Forum discussion, because both members and staff were very unhappy with the decision, and were speaking their minds. Also because of this they took the forum down last night. Now members cannot post anything, just use PM.

This is going to cost to the RDFRS cause a lot, and the fools do not understand it. I am sorry, but I will not be supporting it any more. The site techs and admins have shown that they do not respect the people that have contributed so much there. I am not going to get involved in the new sanitized and borged new area of theirs. I like the chaos and feel of forums, I like the live community of forums, the banter, the silly threads, the serious threads... After all I am human, and that's what a forum community is about: being human, being able to let go and many times say things you were not able to say in your every day life.

For me, the RD.net forum became over the 2 years I have been there, like a second home, somewhere where I could let off steam, I could talk to like-minded people, and more. It also was a place that helped me get through the first anniversary of my little sister's death, in 2008.

I am sorry that Josh and Andrew feel they had to axe the forum. I don't know why, and right now, I don't care why. All I care is that I am so angry and frustrated, and going totally in emotional circles. Because I had invested a lot of work in the forum, I knew certain areas of the forum quite well, and the community therein. A lot of people contributing hours in order to post a rebuttal to creationist posts, or to debunk alien conspiracy videos... Hours to write one essay for the science competition Mazille started, and more.


Some people are trying to save a lot of the threads there. There are threads, like the debate threads, and the huge flood debate thread that should be visible and accessible to everyone on the net.

And all that for what? This is not just a rant, but an obituary. An obituary about the death of a wonderful community.

Goodbye forever, forum.richarddawkins.net

PS. RDF = Richard Dawkins Forum


Update: it seems that Josh Timonen has deleted one of the science mods, Mazille along with all the posts he made, just because he spoke his mind aloud. Mazille is one of the newest mods, and the one who made the science competition happen.  More updates on the situation as information comes in.


More blogposts about the RD.net death: Jerome - The End of an Era: Richard Dawkins Forum to Close


Update 2: Josh also deleted another user's account, CJ, along with all his posts. CJ was a global moderator until October of 2008. Seems like Josh really doesn't like all the criticism he is getting.

Frankly, after all this, I would not go back to the forum if it was reopened unless Josh and Andrew were fired, and people who respect the community are hired. Josh has shown that he is not interested in the membership, nor the volunteer staff, like me, like Topsy, Sciwoman, Ilovelucy, Mazille, Gallstones and more. However, with decisions like this he is hurting the Foundation, because most members were also a driving force that actively supported the Foundation. Don't count on any contribution from me on the next fundraiser, if things go like this. Josh has shown no respect for me or the other staff, and this is the only way I have of making my displeasure known. By blogging and by withdrawing any support for the foundation.

Oh, and please join me and other staff from RDF over at rationalia: http://rationalia.com